Perhaps this has already been discussed on this forum, but when it comes to Cadillac stretched limousines do we refer to them as "Customs" or by the model they are based on eg. "Cadillac Fleetwood Stretched Limousine"? I have read what MrCadillac says about this, that the Cadillac factory doesn't make stretch limousines, so they are stretched aftermarket by other companies, which according to him means they can't be described as a geniune Cadillac model because they have been altered too much. A Cadillac "Stretched Limousine" isn't officially part of the Cadillac model range. I understand what he means but I think it would be more helpful to other people if we say which model the limo has been based on. After they still have the same front and rear body work and engine it's just that they've been extended and the cabin has been changed. We still list Lincoln stretched limos as Lincoln Town Car or Continental Stretched Limousines instead of Lincoln Custom Stretched Limousines. I know a lot of Cadillac limos are listed as, say, Fleetwood or DeVille Stretch Limousines, but quite a few are still listed as Custom Stretched Limousines.

"Custom Stretched Limousine" is used when the base model is not known, which seems to often be the case for Caddillacs.
Else we append "Stretched Limousine" to the base name to indicated that it was stretched(modified), as that name is AFAIK never used by any make. On the other hand, the factory-limousine versions may include "Limousine" in the name.

But shouldn't we be able to tell the base model by looking at the front of the limo?

Not always I think, as for some the only difference between models are minor trim details that are changed when they are stretched. And sometimes these details are not visible on the pictures, see the high number of Cadillac listed without model name.

Old subject I know, but can I rename all these "Cadillac Custom" stretched limousines to whatever model they were based on, what they were before they converted into stretched limousines? Eg. Cadillac Fleetwood Stretched Limousine, Cadillac DeVille Stretched Limousine. Many have already been named like this anyway.

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicles.php?make=Cadillac&model=Custom+Stretched+Limousine- &modelMatch=1&modelInclModel=on

In many cases people have said on the page what the original model would have been, and if this cannot be determined, I think just "Cadillac Stretched Limousine" would be better than "Cadillac Custom Stretched Limousine".

I know MrCadillac (who seems to have long ceased being a regular on IMCDB) preferred to emphasize that they were custom products and not official Cadillac models, but surely they were when they left the factory and went off to the limousine coachbuilders. They aren't like Obama's limousine which is a completely custom made vehicle (I think I read that the only part made by Cadillac is the badge) and you can't really call it a "CTS Stretched Limousine" or whatever.

I realise a couple of points I've just made have sort been answered above already, I just thought I'd make sure.

I agree with you, but I think that most of those listed as "Custom Stretched Limousine" were not identifiable as a precise model anyway.
Be very careful with what "people" said: a lot of people just guess Cadillac models, so only the known reliable users should be trusted for that. You know, for a given years different model names are very similar.

Do you think it's OK to use "Stretched Limousine" instead of "Custom Stretched Limousine"? I think that would be better.

Maybe it would be worth seeking opinions on these issues from people like Commander57, somename, drujon etc who know these vehicles particularly well?

I also think it's worth clearing up the Fleetwood 75/Fleetwood Stretched Limousine issue as well. It seems that the factory limos were known as 75 in some years and stretched limousine in others.

"Stretched" usually not applied to factory limo.

"Custom Stretched" seems redundant to me, stating that the vehicle has been stretched would automatically imply a degree of customization.

Actually it might make the most sense if we did away with model names entirely and simply labeled them Cadillac Stretched Limousine, as the differences between the Fleetwood Brougham and Sedan DeVille from 1977-1984 were mostly interior. An interior that was promptly thrown out as soon as the car reached the coachbuilder.

The Fleetwood 75 name fell out of use from 1977-84. Cadillac downplayed the name in their sales during the 75/76 model years in anticipation of the drop, and it's not in their brochures from those years, but my 76 shop manual still calls the long wheelbase models Fleetwood 75.

Personally I think that several of the extremely rare and unusual coach built models such as pick-up conversions, station wagons, or convertibles, where the original model can't be identified or so changed it doesn't even really matter anymore, should simply be listed as Custom.

I can be wrong, but I think, that "stretched" means that there was some original car, which was cutted and lenghtened. Vehicle, which was built from beginning on extra long wheelbase chassis isn't "stretched".

I agree.


That's probably why we listed these as "Custom Stretched Limousine" rather than under a model name.

So maybe I could simply rename all to remove the "Custom" mention?
And then for the few case which require it we could still rename them to add a model name.

There's only 5 left listed like now, so you don't have to. I went through a lot of them last night (seeing which could be identified as Fleetwood Brougham, Brougham or Sedan DeVille) and it seems like someone else has renamed some of them as well.

EDIT: Now all they've all been renamed.

There does seem to be a lot of Cadillacs that aren't named properly. None made before 1985 should really be listed as Fleetwood, from about the 40s or 50s until I think 1976 (I think - I've have to check) the proper name was "Fleetwood Sixty Special" (or was it "Fleetwood Series Sixty Special" even?). Some are named like that (except 60 instead of Sixty, which is fine), but a lot are still just called "Fleetwood". Cadillac nomenclature can be a bit tricky. Here's a site I use that I think is quite accurate: http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

Antp, can you quickly rename whole batches of cars, provided you're given a year range or something? If so, I'll keep looking through them and get back to you.



You're splitting hairs a bit. How do we know which of all the other Stretched Limousines (including European mourners cars) are built on different chassis or are cut & shut? Does this really make such a big difference? Please let's not open another can of worms. Most of us realise "Stretched Limousine" means aftermarket customisation. Of course some might confuse the factory-made Fleetwood Limousines (made after Cadillac retired the Fleetwood 75 name) with the stretched limos, that's the only thing.

The Fleetwood 60 Special lasted from 1938 until 1970; and the Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham lasted until 1973. In 1966 The Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham name was added to distinguish the vinyl roof models over the basic steel roof, and from 66-70 the models overlapped. By 1974 Cadillac realized there was no real way to market such a long name and dropped 60 Special nomenclature, shortening it to Fleetwood Brougham (which some of their sales literature had been doing for some time).

Later in 1987 the name was shortened again to just Brougham in order to avoid confusion with the front wheel drive Fleetwood. Later still in 1993 the Fleetwood name returned to the rear-wheel drive model and the Brougham once more became the upscale option characterized by a vinyl roof.

1938-1970 Fleetwood 60 Special
1966-1973 Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham
1975-1986 Fleetwood Brougham
1987-1992 Brougham
1993-1996 Fleetwood
1993-1996 Fleetwood Brougham

Any questions?

Just to make sure, are you using model years or actual years?

Here it says they dropped the 60 Special name in 1975 (I presume it means model year 1975): http://motorera.com/cadillac/cad1970/CAD75B.htm Is this right or wrong? And here http://motorera.com/cadillac/cad1970/CAD71-60.HTM it says from 1971 only the Brougham was the only available model in this range.

For ones from the years before "60 Special" was dropped, should "Brougham" go in the extra info?

Some Cadillacs on this site are listed as "Series 60 Special". Was it ever "Fleetwood Series 60 Special" or is that superfluous? (like saying "Fleetwood Series 75" instead of Fleetwood 75)

Also with the DeVille models, which years was it Coupe de Ville/Sedan de Ville instead of Coupe DeVille/Sedan DeVille?

Interesting, I did some more research and it appears my Cadillac book lied to me Note how by 1974 the glossy color pictures in the brochures omitted the 60 Special, but it still existed way in the back with the specs. And then just for good measure I flipped through my 1976 Shop Manuel and lo-and-behold it’s still called a Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham. I guess we should probably follow the shop manual as that was printed by the service department and not the marketing people.

In 1965 Brougham would be extra info, but from 66-70 the vinyl roof examples were actually a separate model from the steel roofed base 60 Special.

When introduced in 1938 Cadillac didn’t really have model names as we recognize them today. Everything was defined by series number, the difference being the wheelbase. It was always marketed to some degree as “body by Fleetwood” and by the 50s most people would refer to it as Fleetwood. My sources give conflicting information as to when the model was officially considered a Fleetwood 60 Special and not a Series 60 Special, but Cadillac’s sales brochures use 1957. 1956 I have a friend with a 1956 60 Special and next time I stop by his garage I’ll look to see if the word Series is written anywhere on the car. He’s owned it since 1958 and almost always refers to it as simply a Fleetwood.

On a related subject; 1957 also seems to be the year the long wheelbase models became Fleetwood 75s instead of Series 75.


The DeVille vs. de Ville is something of an embarrassment to me. I believe the proper spelling is de Ville and most of Cadillac’s literature would agree, but I can never remember to spell it that way. Maybe someone who speaks French would be able to clear up the grammatically correct way. Antp?

Indeed if you provide me precise criteria I can rename easily batch of vehicles.
Either just based on model/name/body type, or with year ranges.

For "de Ville" vs "DeVille", no idea what is correct.
The original French word used in automobile world (not only Cadillac) was "coupé de ville" which means "city coupe", they derived their model names from there I suppose ("sedan de ville" has no meaning, nor has "de ville" alone, except being city-related)

Right, can you change

All 1938+ "Series 60 Special" to "Fleetwood 60 Special".

All 1977-1984 "Fleetwood 75" to "Fleetwood Limousine"

All "Fleetwood 75 Limousine" to just "Fleetwood 75"

Thanks.

Done. But as I did the step 3 after then step 2, maybe there are again some Fleetwood 75 in that year range (previously listed as Fleetwood 75 Limousine). Shall I also rename those in 1977-1984 to Fleetwood Limousine?

^Thank you very much antp. And yes the Fleetwood 75 name should be excised entirely from the 1977-1984 model years.

As we're cleaning this up there are other issues. For example the long wheelbase models were occasionally used as the base for stretches; for example this one: http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_295767-Cadillac-Fleetwood-75-Custom-1977.html I suggest labeling it as Fleetwood Limousine Stretched; in the interests of consistency and streamlining the organization.